The New Yawk Blog

As The Onion's famed columnist Jim Anchower likes to say, it's been a long time since I rapped at ya. We last left off with me, having well sampled the local used market of private MINI Cooper sellers to travel off to the land of Car Dealerships. This land might be your land, and it might be my land, but the land of Car Dealerships is the land of the doomed. Doomed for those who go there for deals, and doomed for those who work there and have to live every minute of the human drama that is car sales and dealer service.

Let's turn back the clock, to Thursday, July 8th.

During a lunchtime scan of the Craiglist market at my desk in sunny Fairfax, VA, I come across a relatively new posting for a 2004 MINI Cooper S, at $12,788. Also, I notice that this is a dealership offering, not a private seller. This is strange, since the dealer is listing the price for all to see. In my weeks of searching, I have never seen a dealer-held MINI with an advertised price. As I mentioned in Part I, the price is a secret, set at the time of your call. I'm surprised. A line in the sand has been drawn, and as the Karrass Effective Negotiating training tells me, he who lays out a price first owns the initial disadvantage in the process.

Intrigued, I email the dealership and also let them have my cell phone number. What happens next is what I want to happen: two emails and two phone calls in rapid succession, over the span of about 30 minutes. This is what I want private sellers to do that they will not do - I want to be sold, and I want the seller's attention. With a car dealer, one gets this in spades. Really, people who want to buy a car should want this attention. It means that the negotiating can begin and the process of seeing what can or can't work will happen at the pace the buyer determines (initially).

Now I have to make a decision that I knew I'd make this way, my Blog Reading Friend. The question is, do I tell readers which dealership I worked with? As the process is now behind me with these guys, I am left with mixed bag of good and bad news, and in my estimation, all of it typical of car dealerships everywhere. Since the bad news was pretty bad, and involved both a lack of integrity and then some outright insults to my intelligence, I cannot in good faith pass on their name to you. Efforts were made to right wrongs, for certain, but the "wrongs" were manufactured by the dealer in the deal, and took my patience and point-blank conversation tone to bring about the corrections. If you must know, email me, and I will say who they are - but my bet is that most readers will simply ask me if this is the same dealer that screwed them on a past deal. Here's a hint - save your energy - they will all screw you to a wall, if you did business with them.

But back to the 9th... Chester Karrass (pictured below) teaches us that in negotiations, Americans rush in too fast, in a huge hurry to make and close a deal. I find this to be quite true. Instead, he asks his students to slow the process down first, and then apply his methods. I won't do his course justice here, but I'll stick to the highlights of what his people taught me in 2005 that made me think much differently about the art of the deal. Once one has decided to slow down, the next step is to investigate the goods and do some digging. Then as one is applying pressures and testing aspects that the seller might have, change the pace - compliment the seller and then drop in well-placed concessions. It isn't about being a hard-ass - it's about managing expectations and knowing the dynamics. I drove down to the dealer after dinner with my 4 and a half year old son, Oliver, in tow and who would serve as my foil. He's perfect for the job, too - boundless energy and a constant distraction to anyone trying to make a point to me. I also called Randy Kendall before I headed down to the dealer to work over the basic economics. Randy sold cars for some time, in this region, too. What Randy taught me was not how cars are bought and sold, but what makes dealerships tick, from new, to used, to finance, to service. Without what he taught me, I'd be lost.

I told Randy that my mission was to get the dealer to $10k. Randy expressed that based on my research, that the car was priced just above the profit mark that the dealership would need in used sales to call it a winner. In his mind, $10k was not a sensible sale. As one of Randy's Rules is "A cash deal is poison to a dealer," this is exactly what I have in mind this night. Going in, offering almost $3k below the offered price and then shunning financing - Randy smells a wasted evening ahead. As I have nothing to lose and could use some mental exercise, I go in with my plan unchanged.

For time's sake, I decided to bullet out what happened below, or I'll be writing this in grave detail until next week. Here goes:

July 8th, I discover the car on CL for $12,788:

1. After getting to the dealer, I ask to test drive the car. The salesman had been waiting out front, and claimed he was waiting for me to arrive. At 7:30 PM the dealership is devoid of customers, new or used, and would stay this way until when I left at 9:45 PM
2. We agree a test drive is going to go down, with my son riding in the back, as the immediate course of action
3. Approaching the car, several large dings are apparent - both doors and the trunk have suffered dents that will need to be professionally removed. As they're all on different panels, this could become a costly affair. I grouse about this loudly, but don't really care yet. I make a big deal over something I can get taken care of at any time of my choosing, because it becomes negotiating ammunition later on
4. The car drives fine - no issues that I can detect. Fit and finish of the interior are clean and nice. Performance is snappy and trouble free. So far, so good
5. I tell the salesman in the parking lot - there are two things: a) this will be a cash deal and b) this car will need to go to an independent shop of my choosing, or no deal. He immediately agrees - good
6. The salesman and I sit down to discuss price. He asks if the asking price is suitable, as it is fair, below market, and set so that the car will move. I disagree, as I am just-not-so-sure of this. I ask why he thinks this is the case
7. The salesman loads Kelly Blue Book (KBB), quickly types in some data and makes some selections, and the site comes back with a $15.5k price. "See?" asks the dealer. The car is priced WAY below market. I say I do not agree, and ask that we load up NADA and check. See the first graphic on the right for what KBB says this car is at retail, in "Excellent" condition
8. The salesman asks why I want NADA, and the first real punch in the fight of this deal is thrown. Kelly Blue Book is bloated and inflates the value of used cars on the whole. Banks routinely use NADA for pricing, and for no charge, their site offers a range of prices across various used vehicle conditions. This is another Randy Rule - use NADA, not KBB
9. Begrudgingly, the salesman loads NADA. With me shoulder surfing his input selections now, we get four prices on the range, with the results in the picture seen to the right - $9,700 to $14,475. Here comes the hard work
10. The dealer exclaims that the car is clearly "Clean Retail" and I retort that the car is somewhere between "Rough Trade-in" and "Average Trade-in."
11. I offer $10k, flat
12. The salesman says he needs to find the dealership GM for such situations. My son and I wade into the used car sales bullpen, which like the showroom floor is devoid of customers. They see my son, and wave - I tell them that my son is going to pull 7 days a week, open to close, put 54 cars on the board this month at huge margins, all financed deals, and roll everyone's extras into financing as well as their upside-down debt on their trade. This elicits deep laughter and hysterics and exclamations of "Start that boy TONIGHT!" and "We're all going on VACATION!" They're all hustlers and sharks. Amongst them at the corner desk is the used car sales manager. Perfect
13. The salesman comes back to his desk. The GM says they can deal, but $10k is just too low. I agree that the offer is below their ask, but fair. The car has considerable door dings, and is at the high end of mileage. It also has not been to an independent shop. I say my offer is firm, and fair. The salesman leaves, and returns with the used car manager
14. The used cars manager sees me, sees my son, and his expression changes as we're introduced. " You're that father from before. Where did you sell cars?" he asks me. Nowhere, I tell him. I just know a couple of things. He insists that the car is "Clean Retail, " and has been through his crack service team - the car is 100% and ready to take on the road. We get back to this later
15. I'd like to do what Karrass suggests we do next - that is, to find out what the dealer needs in this deal. All too often in negotiations, we fail to see what the other party needs in their end of the deal. I plan to explore this, but not in earnest. This isn't a good faith deal. This is a car dealer. All I will hear are a pack of lies, and they flow soon enough
16. "We took a beating on this trade!" the used manager tells me. So what, I reply - I tell them that they either made it up in the new car trade deal in financing, or they'll make it on the next fool who comes in upside-down on his Nissan Pathfinder by $3k and needs a minivan, has poor credit, and can only put $500 down. I remind him that he's comped on his book of business over time, not giged on individual car sales
17. "We're going to lose money on this car, no matter what, at $12,788" he insists. Probably a lie - no matter - he will never disclose what they paid for the car, as it is used, and they are not forced to tell me this as they are with a new car. Even if he got it at wholesale, he paid around $9.5k. I was shown the auction prices of wholesale cars by a friend with access just before this trip, so I know what they'd pay for the car if that's how they got it. Dealerships like this buy these cars to attract people in, and then get them into something else. This MINI is an ornament for their dealership (they sell Japanese cars). They can get another one at wholesale the next day if they want to
18. "The door dings are going to cost us $500 or more to remove, but are typical of a car of this age" they assure me. I tell them I won't take a car with such dings, and that it should be cheaper to have them removed (I have had quotes before for similar dings on my own cars). They reassure me it costs "a fortune" that they will have to incur to make me happy. I let them believe this
19. "This car won't last here" they assure me. But they're wrong. I retort with, "Show me the customer who can secure financing for a 2004 motor vehicle with 72k miles on it. No such person exists around here. Show me that customer with $2k in their hands and down payment, and they'll be in your new car office getting a deal on a new car, not on a 2004 model that your dealership doesn't stock, can't work on, and will end up with a loan offer of 12% to 18% if they're lucky"
20. They stop to consider this, I wait, and then tell them, "The person who buys this car bears a striking resemblance to me. He wants a used MINI and is on the market in this town, found yours has the options and condition he thinks is suitable, he is my age or so, and has cash. No other description applies"
21. "But we priced this competitively, and we used a computer system to scan the market to make sure we were the lowest!" Perhaps, but they didn't take into account private sellers. I remind them of this, and then remind them they listed this car on CL, surrounded on all sides two or three echelons deep by private sellers
22. "We need $11.5k on this car" they tell me. No, I assure them, it cannot be done. I left the house with $10k and want to give it all to them. I can take my money home and go back to hunting private sellers. I am in no rush. Luckily, I do not need this car right now
23. "Give us something to work with - what can you put back into this deal?" they ask and then I strike my next blow. See line 18. I have an instant change of heart and tell them I can drive a car with dings - what's a ding, anyway? They bloated it to $500 for repair, not me. I tell them, take the ding repair out of the deal, and we're now at $11k
24. I tell them to take the $500 fee out, as it is utter nonsense. They disagree on taking it out, and agree it is basic profit. I promise to revisit this point
25. As they try to impress $11k to me, plus tax, tags, title, and $500 fee (which is pure profit for them), I cut them off - my son needs to use the bathroom. When we come back, I open up with, "OK, are we going to do $10k here?" They hold their ground, distraction be damned. OK, I tell them, I'll call the wife, but it is a dumb plan, I say. I call Brigitta and tell her I am coming home - that $11k is their last bastion and it is now 9:45 PM. Oliver needs to get to bed, after tearing up the dealership's showroom since 7:30 PM. I tell the manager and salesman that I will ask the wife to sleep on the $11k idea. I allowed Oliver to break the dealer's pace several times, but never mine
26. We go home. No one sleeps on the $11k idea. It is not even a consideration

     

July 9th, mid-morning, then late afternoon:

1. I call the salesman up, and he excitedly asks me if the wife went for $11k. No, I tell him. We're at $10k still
2. The salesman shifts his tone to a lower register, and says, "Why don't you come get the car and take it to your shop for a look. Then we can talk, OK?" I agree
3. That last afternoon, I walk into their showroom and they hand me the keys. I ask if $10k on the table. They tell me, "Just go check it out, why don't you?" Because I don't want to waste my Friday afternoon, is why. If $10k isn't on the table, then I'd just as soon leave. "OK, yeah, $10k is on the table" they agree
4. I get the car into Chandler and Sons, in the bay where Henry Dang works. Henry and I talked MINIs weeks ago, good and bad, and they knew I was coming. Once the car is on the lift after Henry drives it, Mike & Freddie Chandler and I go over what Henry found:
   1. Front-end bushings off the A-arms are gone. There's barely any evidence of rubber left on the arm ends. The arms clank around in their bushing sockets like Nolan Ryan's arm, devoid of cartilage. The front subframe has to be dropped to remedy this affair. It will take 3 or 4 hours easy plus parts, says Henry
   2. The computer won't squawk. The ECU has issues and appears to need to be reprogrammed. Without a deep diagnostic run, we cannot be sure, but we're not going to run one - we're going to note that the ECU needs to talk, and if not, be replaced and programmed
   3. All else looks OK - no rot, rust, damage, bends, leaks, or anything else funny that we can see. We take our time, bumper to bumper
5. Chandler and Sons tells me the bill could be $2k if everything is at its worst, or around $500 to $700 at the best. No safe assumptions can be made as to what it will really take until taken apart and closely gone over. If the computer is fried, a nice chunk of that cost goes to replacing it
6. Chandler and Sons notes all the information on an official summary from their shop's letterhead, and provides me the computer printout, too. I pay them for their service, which was terrific piece of mind (and my wife Brigitta's idea from the start - she trusts dealers less than I do)
7. I hustle back to the dealer with the notes in my hand. On arrival, I am warmly greeted and asked how things went - great, right? I look somberly at the used sales team members, and tell them, boys, let's get out of view of the few customer you have, OK? The news is not so hot
8. The manager reviews the notes, and then opens with, "Well, a shop can find anything they want..." and we're now back to the fun of the previous evening. Here comes the BS truck with a fresh delivery. I can have all I want, if I like, too
9. I stop the manager - before you disparage my shop, read the notes. The bushings are missing - that's a safety issue, period. I could have lost control in a hurried stop to miss an accident and risk precious inches since the front-wheel-drive suspension load bearing linkage is metal-on-metal. Also, the computer is kaput, and we all know a) we need a computer and b) it has to work or the car can go "kablooey" and be a pricey fix before we even know what went wrong
10. I debated an offer of $8k to counter the possible $2k investment, and this was in my head, but I had a better idea. I offer to walk away from the whole deal. I don't want to drive any more unsafe cars, and I don't want to make an offer so low as to offend, only to have to then go and get those repairs on my own time
11. The manager quickly considers this, agrees that the safety issues are serious, and then he says, "So, what if I get these issues fixed? I can see to both issues quickly. Will you buy the car then?"
12. I reiterate that $10k is my offer. However, using a Karrass technique, I pull off the pressure, and switch gears to complimenting the manager on his "honesty" and strong desire to make a deal work. I tell him his own shop screwed him (face it, they never looked at this car, ever) by telling him it was perfect - how was he to know? If I were him, I say, well, I'd be hopping mad. He smiles, and says, "You're right, I am mad! How could they miss these things???" How, indeed, I solemnly agree. No matter, I take him on his "word" that this can be made to work, but the car is not "Excellent" or "Clean Retail" and that if he likes, he can replace it with another wholesale MINI when I am gone with this one. I am repelling a combined urge to laugh and vomit at the same time
13. The manager admits that he just took possession of a 2007 MINI Cooper S from a wholesaler that day, and it is now on the lot. He wants the one I want gone, and he's willing to let it go to me "at a loss" since I am such a smart, straight shooter who covers every base. I tell him he can have his fee if he gets the whole deal, tax, tag, and title close to $11k. But the fee can't be part of the price of the car, figured into taxes. I need to pay tax, tag, and title anyway and had assumed budget for this on a $10k deal
14. The manager says, "Fine. Deal. Sold. I am tired of this deal." and I know I have won. Randy's Rule - Use the dealer's game against them. They want to soak up all of your time and energy. Do that to them, carefully, with strategy. Keep them interested but wear them out in the process - it works both ways. When I heard the manager say he was tired of me, I knew I'd made my case
15. I explain that I want these conditions in writing, and that I will then need to inspect the results myself. Since his "crack service team" missed these items (line #14, July 8th), I don't think they are up to the task to get it right. I want the car on a lift, so I can inspect the suspension myself, and I want an ECU report, with the MINI VIN number on it, that says the computer and all systems report clean. Without those two items in writing in the contract, and then produced to my satisfaction, there is no deal
16. The manager agrees so firmly, one would think I had told him that people breathe air to live and I was just making sure. He needs the weekend to get the car into service and will get back to me...

July 12th, and we find out what the shop has to say:

1. Monday morning, I hear from the dealer's service advisor. He asks me, "OK, why do you need the computer to read out a clean report? Who said you need this?"
2. Offended, I tell him I am asking for it - that I won't buy a car with a bum or glitched computer. He asks, "Really, why not? What's wrong with the car?"
3. The computer is not talking, is what's wrong, I insist. My tone is rising now. He goes lax on me, "OOOOK, I guess we can get it reprogrammed, but I can't do it here. We're not a MINI dealer and I don't have the probes to do it. What do you want me to do?"
4. What I want him to do it something he can do to himself, in the comfort of his own home, and I hope be breaks his neck trying it.  I tell him to have the used manager call me. When the used manager calls me, he opens with, "Good news! I spoke to the service advisor - he says the bushings are just fine they way they are? Hello? Mr. Rubin, you there?"
5. I am simmering in my own juices. I saw the daylight where the bushings are supposed to be with my own eyes. I manipulated the suspension myself. I tell the used car manager that I am offended and surprised at his shop's findings, and I cannot buy the car now
6. The used car manager asks me if he can get another service advisor to look it over. I agree, and tell him he's wasting his time now, not mine
7. The new service advisor calls me that afternoon, and tells me that the car needs to go to MINI of Sterling. The car should not be in their own shop for this work as they are ill equipped. The used car manager calls me back and says that his office will pay to have the items worked on at his expense, and that I will get all the paperwork on findings and repairs from BMW directly
8. My $500 deposit that I left on July 9th is uncashed, and I suspect it will stay that way. If BMW says it is $2k to repair this car, the dealership will say, "Forget it," wholesale it, and tell me the deal is off, I am sure. If it ends up that way, I won't be surprised

July 13th through the 16th:

1. I wait for the car to end up at MINI of Sterling. The dealership who has the car I want has no insight into Sterling's workload. The car will be seen when it is seen, in due time
2. The evening of the 15th, I hear from the used car manager - the MINI is done at BMW, but he's waiting for the accounting department to cut a check to BMW MINI of Sterling so they can release the car. The bill - $700 for the front end work and computer reprogramming. The labor alone was $600. All of the paperwork detailing the work is on hand, for me to keep
3. July 16th, that evening, the car is back at the dealer ready for me to take possession. As I will be out of town until Sunday morning, the dealership will have to wait. They do

July 18th:

1. At around 1:00 PM, I take possession of the MINI, after cutting a fresh check for the car, tax, tag, fee, and title. $11k for everything, and we're done
2. Randy tells me he is impressed that I got the sales price to $10k. He didn't think I could get the dealer to do it

Epilogue:

Necessary evils surround us. In order to receive life saving medicines, we sometimes need to endure needles. Once, I remarked to my children's' pediatrician that the multiple vaccination shots they issue (sometimes three of four at one sitting) make the whole visit traumatic and create a hell of a situation to manage. Sensing I was making a rhetorical kind of complaint, she replied, "Mr. Rubin, I agree. But just think of the consequences should they catch one of the diseases we're protecting them from." The lesson is simple and of course I knew it, but the logic cuts across many similar discussions.

When one seeks to purchase a used car, one must deal with a used car salesman.

It doesn't matter if it is a dealer, or a private seller, if the process to deal with either is understood beforehand. I prefer neither case to buy a used car, but preferences are luxuries. A used car purchase comes with the needle prick, period. Selling a car for me is something else, beyond the scope of this blog entry. But buying a used car is something we should strive to do without hurry, emotions, knowledge, and some gamesmanship of our own to being to bear. I won't rush to repeat this task again anytime soon, but if I have to, thanks to Randy Kendall and a lot of lessons learned, I can pull it off to my satisfaction. I got to a deal I wanted to get to in the end. It always seems to take more than I had planned going in.

I hope any of you have better luck than I did. If your story in return to me is how you got treated like a king, had an easy deal, no hassles, no issues, and you bought a used car in these United States (or worse, financed it), I have only one question for you: How'd you like the ride? No, not the ride of the car you bought - the ride the dealer took you on - how'd that one feel? I know they loved it.